Discussion:
[Agda] Can intuitionistic type theory express derivations of physical equations more strictly?
Hidekazu IWAKI
2017-09-28 12:38:11 UTC
Permalink
Hello,

I'd like to describe a physical system with the intuitionistic type
theory(not computer simulation). I wonder if it is possible to convince
readers that all famous physical equations have evenly a strict derivation.
So I want to confirm it with the type theory.

In order to refer, I'm looking about such a system, a plot or a
interpretation of value with type in physics. Does anyone know such a
information?

sincerely,

IWAKI Hidekazu
Martin Escardo
2017-09-28 15:09:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hidekazu IWAKI
Hello,
I'd like to describe a physical system with the intuitionistic type
theory(not computer simulation).  I wonder if it is possible to convince
readers that all famous physical equations have evenly a strict
derivation. So I want to confirm it with the type theory.
In order to refer, I'm looking about such a system, a plot or a
interpretation of value with type in physics. Does anyone know such a
information?
I don't know about your question with intuitionistic mathematics. But
people have thought about this in the context of computability theory
(developed within classical mathematics, as usual - which is closely
related, as well as closely unrelated to intuitionistic mathematics).

Here are two examples I remember without thinking too much:


(1) Pour-el and Richards book, whose chapters are available individually
on Project Euclid.
https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&hs=xgx&channel=fs&q=pour-el+and+richards&oq=pour-el+and+richards&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0i22i30k1l2.1396.1396.0.2909.1.1.0.0.0.0.95.95.1.1.0.dummy_maps_web_fallback...0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.1.94....0.xVYVMRJyYEc

There the heat and wave (differential) equations are discussed. For one
of them, the solution is computable from the initial condition. For the
other one, it isn't.

(2) John Longley, University of Edinburgh, On the calculating power of
Laplace's demon (Part I). I don't think part II exists in writing. This
is an extended version of a CiE'2006 publication.
http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/jrl/Research/laplace1.pdf

Martin
Post by Hidekazu IWAKI
sincerely,
IWAKI Hidekazu
_______________________________________________
Agda mailing list
https://lists.chalmers.se/mailman/listinfo/agda
--
Martin Escardo
http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~mhe
Bas Spitters
2017-09-28 15:22:41 UTC
Permalink
Regarding the wave equation you may want to read:
The Wave Propagator Is Turing Computable
https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007/3-540-48523-6_66.pdf
Post by Hidekazu IWAKI
Hello,
I'd like to describe a physical system with the intuitionistic type
theory(not computer simulation). I wonder if it is possible to convince
readers that all famous physical equations have evenly a strict derivation.
So I want to confirm it with the type theory.
In order to refer, I'm looking about such a system, a plot or a
interpretation of value with type in physics. Does anyone know such a
information?
I don't know about your question with intuitionistic mathematics. But people
have thought about this in the context of computability theory (developed
within classical mathematics, as usual - which is closely related, as well
as closely unrelated to intuitionistic mathematics).
(1) Pour-el and Richards book, whose chapters are available individually on
Project Euclid.
https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&hs=xgx&channel=fs&q=pour-el+and+richards&oq=pour-el+and+richards&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0i22i30k1l2.1396.1396.0.2909.1.1.0.0.0.0.95.95.1.1.0.dummy_maps_web_fallback...0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.1.94....0.xVYVMRJyYEc
There the heat and wave (differential) equations are discussed. For one of
them, the solution is computable from the initial condition. For the other
one, it isn't.
(2) John Longley, University of Edinburgh, On the calculating power of
Laplace's demon (Part I). I don't think part II exists in writing. This is
an extended version of a CiE'2006 publication.
http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/jrl/Research/laplace1.pdf
Martin
Post by Hidekazu IWAKI
sincerely,
IWAKI Hidekazu
_______________________________________________
Agda mailing list
https://lists.chalmers.se/mailman/listinfo/agda
--
Martin Escardo
http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~mhe
_______________________________________________
Agda mailing list
https://lists.chalmers.se/mailman/listinfo/agda
Hidekazu IWAKI
2017-09-29 12:04:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hidekazu IWAKI
Hello,
I'd like to describe a physical system with the intuitionistic type
theory(not computer simulation). I wonder if it is possible to convince
readers that all famous physical equations have evenly a strict derivation.
So I want to confirm it with the type theory.
In order to refer, I'm looking about such a system, a plot or a
interpretation of value with type in physics. Does anyone know such a
information?
I don't know about your question with intuitionistic mathematics. But
people have thought about this in the context of computability theory
(developed within classical mathematics, as usual - which is closely
related, as well as closely unrelated to intuitionistic mathematics).

Here are two examples I remember without thinking too much:


(1) Pour-el and Richards book, whose chapters are available individually on
Project Euclid. https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&hs=xgx&channel=f
s&q=pour-el+and+richards&oq=pour-el+and+richards&gs_l=psy-ab
.3..0i22i30k1l2.1396.1396.0.2909.1.1.0.0.0.0.95.95.1.1.0.dum
my_maps_web_fallback...0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.1.94....0.xVYVMRJyYEc

There the heat and wave (differential) equations are discussed. For one of
them, the solution is computable from the initial condition. For the other
one, it isn't.

(2) John Longley, University of Edinburgh, On the calculating power of
Laplace's demon (Part I). I don't think part II exists in writing. This is
an extended version of a CiE'2006 publication.
http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/jrl/Research/laplace1.pdf
Post by Hidekazu IWAKI
The Wave Propagator Is Turing Computable
https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007/3-540-48523-6_66.pdf
Thank you for your presentation of the references! I'm really grateful to
give answer!
As you have said, I'd like to construct computability theory of physics, if
it's possible. But I'm not quite advanced enough yet, just thinking basic
design.

Frankly speaking, I want to get interpretations of "type" of typed value in
knowledge about physics.(not physical interpretation)

Although it is not systematic enough, I think that Lajas Yánossy's
representation theory on physical reality includes any hints, probably.
(His theory is written in "Theory of relativity based on physical reality".
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0569066336 But I have only the Japanese version.)
In the book, physical reality and its measure are distinguished. A physical
measure "a" is a representation of physical reality "α" to show an aspect
of α. He formed this relationship between a reality and its measure by
representation function R to grasp an aspect of the reality
R(α) = a
that is to say,
R(<a physical reality>) = <its measure>.
I realize that it perhaps opens up a little possibility to interpreting
physical reality as type. In other words, above relationship can be rewrite
to
a : α,
<its measure> : <a physical reality>.
Therefore, we think that the consideration of relationships between
physical realities corresponds the type inference.

To tell the truth, I thought it was nice idea; however, Yánossy's physical
realism is not systematic and ambiguous. If I went this approach, I must
rebuild his physical realism to match the intuitionistic type theory.

The difficulties, it goes without saying, are clear to all.

So, I'd like to ask for information on typed physical language system or
interpretations of typed value.
If it's possible, it would be good that anyone provides any ideas about the
above topic.

Sincerely,
IWAKI

Martin


sincerely,
Post by Hidekazu IWAKI
IWAKI Hidekazu
_______________________________________________
Agda mailing list
https://lists.chalmers.se/mailman/listinfo/agda
--
Martin Escardo
http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~mhe
Mario Castelán Castro
2017-09-28 16:38:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hidekazu IWAKI
I'd like to describe a physical system with the intuitionistic type
theory(not computer simulation). I wonder if it is possible to convince
readers that all famous physical equations have evenly a strict derivation.
So I want to confirm it with the type theory.
In order to refer, I'm looking about such a system, a plot or a
interpretation of value with type in physics. Does anyone know such a
information?
Hello.

First, I must note that my knowledge of constructive type theory is near
null. I am subscribed to this mailing list because I am interested in
learning Agda and its underlying logic but so far I have not allocated
the required time.

What specific famous physical equations do you have in mind?

I have been thinking about formalizing (in HOL4) a derivation of the
Lorentz transform from invariance or symmetry axioms, something like the
textbook derivation (in special relativity) of the Lorentz transform
based on the invariance of the speed of light and isotropy of space.
Having done this, the natural continuation is to follow with the laws of
relativistic mechanics and eventually electromagnetics. Unfortunately, I
need more background in analysis before undertaking the part about
electromagnetics.

(Side note: Poincaré and Lorentz formulated special relativity; Einstein
just took what these men had already discovered, added his own
metaphysical interpretation and published it as if it was his sole work;
in other words, plagiarism combined with philosophical bullshit)
--
Do not eat animals; respect them as you respect people.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=how+to+(become+OR+eat)+vegan
Hidekazu IWAKI
2017-09-30 12:09:55 UTC
Permalink
Sorry. I didn't send the reply to the mailing list.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Hidekazu IWAKI <***@gmail.com>
Date: 2017-09-29 23:49 GMT+09:00
Subject: Re: [Agda] Can intuitionistic type theory express derivations
of physical equations more strictly?
Post by Mario Castelán Castro
Post by Hidekazu IWAKI
I'd like to describe a physical system with the intuitionistic type
theory(not computer simulation). I wonder if it is possible to convince
readers that all famous physical equations have evenly a strict derivation.
So I want to confirm it with the type theory.
In order to refer, I'm looking about such a system, a plot or a
interpretation of value with type in physics. Does anyone know such a
information?
Hello.
First, I must note that my knowledge of constructive type theory is near
null. I am subscribed to this mailing list because I am interested in
learning Agda and its underlying logic but so far I have not allocated
the required time.
Thank you for your honesty! I also don't have enough knowledge about
the type theory. I cannot yet understand Martin-Löf's papers enough.
If anything, I prefer to Göran Sundholm's philosophical papers at this
time. So, since asking makes me think more about some topics of it, I
did to understand more better. To tell the truth, I have little
knowledge of Agda. Of course, I have programmed in Haskell years ago.
Post by Mario Castelán Castro
What specific famous physical equations do you have in mind?
I understand, as you said, that to specify worrying factors makes this
question more concrete; however, I have no equation proposed and don't
want to be misunderstood.
Post by Mario Castelán Castro
I have been thinking about formalizing (in HOL4) a derivation of the
Lorentz transform from invariance or symmetry axioms, something like the
textbook derivation (in special relativity) of the Lorentz transform
based on the invariance of the speed of light and isotropy of space.
Having done this, the natural continuation is to follow with the laws of
relativistic mechanics and eventually electromagnetics. Unfortunately, I
need more background in analysis before undertaking the part about
electromagnetics.
Sorry. I do not know HOL4 and not realize what the point is. But as
far as I can tell you that each theory has a different origin. So
there is not a natural continuation, probably. Einstein developed the
eventually electromagnetics in implicit and mechanics of
electron(1907); however so-called "relativistic
mechanics"(non-Newtonian mechanics) was developed by Gilbert Newton
Lewis and his coworker Richard Chess Tolman. Although Lewis and
Tolman's mechanics rested on Einstein's 1907 paper, Lewis constructed
it based on another principle at the beginning, so there are some
conceptual mismatch between Einsterin's theory and their
mechanics.(e.g. "rest mass". Because Lewis believe the absolute space
existence at the beginning.)

=== References ===
Gilbert N. Lewis "A revision of the Fundamental Laws of Matter and Energy"
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/A_revision_of_the_Fundamental_Laws_of_Matter_and_Energy

Gilbert N. Lewis and Richard C. Tolman "The Principle of Relativity,
and Non-Newtonian Mechanics"
https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/20022495.pdf?refreqid=excelsior:03dbb0a71b64f57611cdac1adaf32035
=======
Post by Mario Castelán Castro
(Side note: Poincaré and Lorentz formulated special relativity; Einstein
just took what these men had already discovered, added his own
metaphysical interpretation and published it as if it was his sole work;
in other words, plagiarism combined with philosophical bullshit)
You have a sure eye. I think that it is very important to distinguish
what Einstein was doing or not doing in order to understand the 20th
physics.

Sincerely,
IWAKI
Post by Mario Castelán Castro
--
Do not eat animals; respect them as you respect people.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=how+to+(become+OR+eat)+vegan
_______________________________________________
Agda mailing list
https://lists.chalmers.se/mailman/listinfo/agda
Loading...